Is Horsepower Overrated?

"Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2" (pompei426)
03/18/2015 at 20:14 • Filed to: None

No, I don't mean 'are figures twisted and fudged', I'm simply asking what you all think about the quest for more power. Personally, I think enough is enough. Please, don't shoot. I'm not a Communist pig, I just don't get it. Today I was out driving the 02 for about 3 hours with a friend. It was his first time driving my car and he loved it. And, to me, I love being able to share the experience.

Prior to driving my car, my friend thought I was a bit crazy for driving it as hard as I do. But, today he said 'now I know why your foot is always on the floor.' He didn't mean this in a negative way, it's just how you drive the car. And, to be completely honest, I don't want a car that I would never have a chance to drive at 10/10ths. With my car, I come damn close. 100hp sounds piss poor, but trust me, it's a great amount. I get my kicks and I can still leave rubber. I don't have trouble on highways or hills. Yes, I want more, but I can't imagine what my car would be like with 150 or 200hp. That's just too much. And at that point, it's not the same car, and you have to show resistance. And, to me, that just sounds silly. It's like being with the person of your dreams, and only going out for a cup of coffee. Now, I'm not saying my car is a crack whore, all I'm saying is that I love the fact that I can be comfortable with the limits of my car.

TL:DR HELLCATS ARE STUPID

DISCUSSION (53)

CB > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:18

Yeah, horsepower is silly. Torque is where it's at.

Jedidiah > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:19

If that's what you have to tell yourself to be happy with your current amount of horsepower...

The more power and torque you get with leat amount of rpm, the better it is. I like lazy motors and easy to drive cars. No point in pushing anything to the limit when it can be done easily instead.

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:21

It sort of depends on if it is the right amount for your car. There's nothing worse than an underpowered car.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast.
03/18/2015 at 20:25

I do understand, and I wouldn't want to be in an underpowered car. To me, that's unsafe (and not fun).

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:26

My car has 360 horsepower and 390 lb/ft of torque. It feels very tame in normal driving, even slow. I often consider modifying it further, and reaping the benefits of the extra power. I hardly ever drive with my foot down all the way, but when I do it puts me back in my seat. I'm used to it though, and it doesn't feel particularly fast. If I were to add more horsepower it would feel quick for a while, then feel just as it does now. It's all what you're used to. And yes, more power is good. It makes your car feel fast again.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jedidiah
03/18/2015 at 20:29

Ahh, while I have completely different thoughts, I completely agree. It's weird, my dad is a muscle car guy, and some how I entered the low hp and low weight euro thing. I still love muscle cars and can spit facts with the best of them. Hell, still want a 71 Cuda Black on Black with a 440 6pack or a 68 Barracuda Formula S. different strokes. I just like punching an engine and making the shifts more rewarding. But, I totally get where you're coming from. Part of the reason I wrote this is because I was next to 2 yabbos in a 05-09 Mustang with a crazy exhaust. I pull up next to them doing about 70, nod, and they lay the hammer down and start dangerously weaving through traffic.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > CB
03/18/2015 at 20:30

I can't deny, I would love to add more torque than hp to my car.

Manuél Ferrari > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:33

Variety is the spice of life. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

The best thing to do when someone has the garage space and funds is have different kinds of cars. Then each car's strengths really shine when you switch back and forth.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Twinpowermeansoneturbo
03/18/2015 at 20:35

True, and good points. When I went to a double barrel weber from a SB Solex, it was a big difference. Now I want more. And, I still think 300-400 is reasonable. But, when I hear that cars have 800, 900, 1200+hp I shit my pants. Mainly because people (kids) think that you need 400hp to have fun and be fast. Driving my car has taught me to respect each hp. My main problem with the numbers is how far from reality they are.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 20:37

Good point. I still crave a 60s big block Mopar that will scare children. But, at the same time, want an early 911, so I can learn how to drive a completely different animal.

macanamera > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:37

Yes. I think 400 is the perfect number for a daily driver.

Jedidiah > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:38

I'm more of a Cadillac and Oldsmobile kind of guy than a muscle car kind of guy.

Driving makes me happy and I like it to be relaxing and some muscle cars can just be plain unruly.

I grew up on muscle cars as well, but I'd take an Electra 225 or Coupe DeVille over some muscle cars now considering how damn expensive muscle cars have become.

I agree with your sentiment that the "horsepower and performance" image is a bit overrated—at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is whether you like driving the damn thing.

I'm also not cool with people being yobbos on crowded streets—if you want to drive like an idiot, then don't endanger my life or others when you're doing it.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > macanamera
03/18/2015 at 20:42

Yes. I think 400 is the perfect number for a daily driver.

- the guy with the AMG

I kid. 400 is a nice number. I actually want a 2012 Boss 302 for a DD, but that's pretty unrealistic. I will probably compromise for a 335i wagon. So, in that case 300hp is the perfect number.

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:43

I agree with your points. And it definitely depends on the car as well. A 2002 does not need 400 horsepower. It doesn't even need 300. On the other hand, something like my car, a 335i, needs around 400 horsepower to be really quick. To that point, I think there's no reason for any street car to have over 600 horsepower. Track cars are a whole other story.

Your boy, BJR > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:44

idk man, I kinda like pulling 1900rpm at 75mph, yet being able to mash the pedal and accelerate at an alarming rate (when a 4000 pound 18 foot luxury sedan can keep the pace with little forced induction ford pocket rockets, that's alarming)

Manuél Ferrari > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:45

This is a good plan. Have both!

Can you get that muscle car with a manual in it? Or were they automatic only?

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jedidiah
03/18/2015 at 20:46

Nothing wrong with being a Caddy guy. I'm 20, but I get nostalgic when I read articles about old cars that took skill to drive fast. Ideally, this is a perfect shift in a 250 SWB, but can still apply to a 930 Turbo. I think it's too easy to go fast today. And, there are no rattles, or noises, that would make one feel like they are actually going ridiculously fast. No, I'm not against build quality. But, when I test drive a 2014 328i (the turbo 4 banger) I was on a road I frequent doing 80mph. The speed limit is 45. It's a fast road, but god, I honestly had no clue. It was so numb, yet easily got up to speed. Felt like 30.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Your boy, BJR
03/18/2015 at 20:48

True, but with great power . . . . . . . . comes great tire costs. And, that's not actually all that bad.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 20:49

Oh, I would have to get a manual. I look through ads all the time, and it's such a let down when I see the interior shot and there's a slushbox. 1970 Mustang Mach 1 with a 351W: Automatic. To me, that's just a waste.

BadMotorScooter > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:50

Hard to argue that more power is a bad thing, but I tend to agree with you. I've had the great fortune to own and drive some very high HP cars. I like muscle, but anymore I find myself seeking the 'fun' car. The driver's car. The handler, not the overpowered rocket. What does overpowered mean? To me it is about power to weight ratio, and how the power is delivered. I want rear drive and a manual transmission, and an engine that can be pushed to redline without risking my life or license.

My current fleet includes an AP1 S2000 and an FR-S, both of which satisfy my 'fun' car needs better than some very high HP sports cars I've owned previously. I also have a turbocharged high-torque rear drive automatic sedan as a daily driver, and V8 trucks. Everything is rear drive (or selectable 4WD trucks) and a manual where I can get one.

Lets Just Drive > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:50

No. Why? Because horsepower is just a unit of measuring force.

Force is required to overcome inertia and momentum; increasing the weight means increasing the power proportionally.

Our perception of horsepower and torque, however; have a more immediate real-world impact on how they are packaged and provided. It's really all about scale and actual units of measure cannot be over-rated, they can only be measured - the rest is down to marketing.

Your boy, BJR > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:51

$400 per tire is actually that bad.

Fuckin' Vogues and their awesomeness.

FromCanadaWithLove > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:51

I think 300-350hp is the sweet spot for daily driving.

macanamera > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:54

300 is also perfect and less dangerous than 400. I only say 400 because I had a V8 M3 with 414 or whatever, and that was just a fantastic amount as a daily, but that might have been because you really needed to string it out to get that 400 out of it. 400 might be a bit much if it's available down low. I'm sure you have driven those 335s, they are fast, sound great, and have power everywhere.

Manuél Ferrari > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 20:56

I don't know a lot about muscle cars so I don't know how the muscle car community thinks about automatics. I have noticed that a ton of muscle cars have automatics so I was worried that they were so popular that some models only came with automatics.

I hate slushboxes. I don't care how well built the slushbox is. It's still a slushbox!

crowmolly > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 21:10

Automatics in the 60's were not the greatest. The lack of aftermarket torque converters made them less popular for racing, and there were even kits that were available to add a clutch to your automatic.

There are PLENTY of manuals. That's what they came standard with.

Manuél Ferrari > crowmolly
03/18/2015 at 21:12

I'm glad there were plenty of manuals!

I wish I had bought a nice muscle car 10 years ago. They were so cheap. Now everything is expensive :P

crowmolly > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:15

The law of diminishing returns is in play with HP.

More power is great up to a point. Then it becomes a hassle, and a lot of cases the excess power is not used on the street at all. No matter how you make the power, you still need to burn the fuel. Add in more expensive parts, heavier duty running gear, etc and at some point it seems pointless.

Everybody has their preference for amount, though. For me there's nothing better than a solid 1-2 powershift that blows the tires loose. Well, when I'm not at the track at least.

crowmolly > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 21:16

10 years ago they were just starting to take off. I passed on a few that are painful now.

NJAnon > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:20

Since we all know Chuck doesn't believe the Dodge Challenger Hellcat is stupid lets find out whats going on. I'd recommend someone to lend Chuck a 2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 or Lotus Super Seven and have his brain synapses changed forever. :P

HP & torque isn't overrated. If there was a strong backing for that, we'd all be still in Ford Model A & T's. So just like there is " colorful expression" in fashion & art, automotive advancement expresses itself in the colorful way it can: HP & torque.

Manuél Ferrari > crowmolly
03/18/2015 at 21:20

So many cars we should have bought 10 years ago. It drives me mad how much money I lost in real estate and how much I could have made if I had spent it on cars!

C9200 > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:23

I agree with you here. I think 700hp hellcats are great on paper, and for the small few who can make the most of it. But for DD duties you just never get to use even 1/10 of its potential.

I DD a 270kw v8 RWD sedan. Most of my driving is in traffic commuting to and from work and all of the other mundane stuff adults do. The moment I put my foot down I'm well over the speed limit and looking out for a speeding ticket. Track days are a rarity because they cost far more than just the cost of entry.

Years ago, I DD'd a jap spec non turbo Nissan Silvia with some nice suspension mods. It was way more fun day to DD than my current v8 sedan.

Jedidiah > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:29

I'm 19, but the newest vehicle that is used by immediate family besides our Rubicons is my 1979 Wagoneer.

There's a big difference between cars made before 72 and cars after 73. Post 73 have better axles and suspensions, but at the expense of everything else—they have many more fragile plastic components and the sheet metal is really thin.

Some time after that there is another gap between the 70s and the modern car. Interiors are now just plastic bits with nice feeling bits spray glued on top of them. Most exterior bits besides body panels are plastic and the remaining sheet metal is even thinner.

The driving is different as well—modern stuff feels heavy and numb and the ride is just harsh enough not be very comfortable for extended periods of time. They respond immediately, but the feedback is so removed from driving.

Road isolation can be nice like in a Eldorado or something, but you don't feel removed from the car—you are well aware of what it's doing and when you reach its limits. You feel the body respond to steering input (quite dramatically for the Eldorado), you feel the car react to throttle, etc.

In the modern car; however, you can't see, hear or feel anything. You just fight a heavy, dead steering wheel and ride along in unpleasantness. Sure the AC works better, but the suspension transfers everything you don't want to feel into your ass through a seat made of made of synthetic materials. Nothing makes you want to stay in the car, you just want to get out and stretch as soon as possible.

These observations are for regular cars of course, nothing ridiculously expensive. Something went in the time it took to make the modern car, and I'll bet it's possible to trace it to a particular year.

bryan40oop > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:41

depends

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast.
03/18/2015 at 21:42

"underpowered" is very much up to interpretation tho. It really just depends on what your used to. Plus some people don't LIKE having to put there foot down all the way down.

to me my 2600lb Civic with 130hp isn't "underpowered" but if you just stepped out of almost anything with a V8 than it would feel way to slow.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 21:58

Kind of depends, the Hellcat has enough power, it's heavy and was never meant to be a track car, at least not one with turns. The Z06 on the other hand has too much power. In the quest for more power, they made it heavier. Sure it's fast on a track, but if they had have focused on weight instead of breaking the ZR1's power figures, I think it would be better, for example, Lotus. TL;DR: Depends on the purpose.

dr861 > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 22:18

I'm personally all for the horsepower race, although I think it's going to be over very soon given the hp numbers we are reaching now for such cheap prices.

In terms of actual experience, I think the sensation of speed is the thing that's more important. Not only that, when you get in a car that is 300 hp+ and it's slow, you are much more disappointed then getting into a 160 hp car, and finding that it is surprisingly quick. Expectations somewhat determine the experience. The best example I can think of is when i got to drive a v8 vantage. I was a huge Aston fan before I had ever driven one, and quite disappointed after. 380 hp sounds like it should be enough, and when you put your foot down, the noise coming from the exhaust makes you expect the world to end, but it just doesn't. There were more reasons why it was disappointing, but the power was a huge part of it.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 22:23

I think the right amount of power has more to do with each driver and their skill. The average driver probably shouldn't have more than 250 or so, depending on the car. People who can handle the power are a different story. But I think 600hp is a nice number for a lot of modern cars. That amount is still useable most of the time, if you know how to handle it. But maybe I'm just desensitized.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 22:29

Row your own way :)

Manuél Ferrari > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 22:34

Yes! Are you an expert at heal toe yet?

I am not. I am trying to practice more. It's not that easy in the 997. The pedal placement make it a bit tough.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
03/18/2015 at 22:35

It irritates me, that manufacturers are too ashamed at releasing a car with less horsepower than the pervious model. Guess what, if you shed 300-400lbs or more, you don't need more power. And, you will have a much better car. Lowering weight is much more technical than adding horsepower. But, usually the power added is not complimented with upgrades everywhere else.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > NJAnon
03/18/2015 at 22:37

I love the Hellcat, just had to sound bold . And I would love to drive a Lotus 7. Z/28 might be something I have to work towards. I never really cared for the new Camaros, but 427ci might change my mind.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 22:44

With the example of the Z06, it would be a lot easier to shed weight. The supercharger and everything else involved with it weigh a lot. An updated LS7 based off the Ecotec3 platform would have been more than adequate. A 550-575 HP Z06 with a 200 lbs diet would have been more than do-able.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 23:12

How/Where else can you go WOT?

The only part that bugs me is a few on-ramps near me are really short and a higher hp car would be helpful.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Manuél Ferrari
03/18/2015 at 23:27

Well, I try, but I wouldn't call myself an expert. I downshift more than I should, or at least more than the average manual Joe. But, in a 44 year old car, I can't do things as swiftly as I would like to. The synchros aren't tip top, so I take the shifting gently. But, I still run the hell out of the 4 speed. Like I said, I don't have ample power, so I'll downshift to 3rd at 65, only to shift up at 75. Yes, that's pretty damn close to redline.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
03/18/2015 at 23:30

Agreed. I also just laugh when car makers make an extreme version and say they shed 50lbs. Come on. It's especially great when Bentley touts a weight loss. Ya, the damn pig still weighs over 2.5 tons.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 23:36

The Bentley kind of follows the Hellcat logic to me. It's a GT car, let it be what it is. Stop trying to make it less comfortable.

Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
03/18/2015 at 23:38

Agreed, and I hated that the Challenge was always put against the Camaro and Mustang. Not the same, but it was the closest comparison.

Manuél Ferrari > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/18/2015 at 23:47

You're probably way better than me. My heal toe skills are marginal at best.

Time to go practice now on the drive home from work!

TJDMAX > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
03/19/2015 at 11:24

First of all....I doubt the new gen 5 LT4 engine weighs 200lbs more than the Ls7. And its not like manufacturers are blatantly adding more weight to cars for the hell of it either. Its easy enough for you (us) to say "oh it would be better if it weighed less" or "Its stupid they only removed 50 pounds..thats nothing" but in reality the reason car weights are increasing is consumers. Not all consumers, but the majority of them are demanding things like full leather, and premium build, and infotainment, and power everything. Not to mention they are demanding things like not dying when the car is in a collision. Pedestrians are demanding that they don't get killed when they are hit by a car either. Safety, emissions, comforts, all these reasons are why car's are weighing more now than they used too. Its not like car makers are just hiding lumps of lead in the truck for justification for increasing the power....

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > TJDMAX
03/19/2015 at 12:20

I meant including the extra cooling involved and strengthening, which considering that when both engines are undressed, the LT4 only weighs an extra 120 lbs, I don't think 200 lbs gained because of the lust of extra power is an unreasonable estimate.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/22/2015 at 23:12

<= 10:1 lbs to hp is enough.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Chuck 2(O=[][]=O)2
03/23/2015 at 18:59

If only modern cars were lighter...You bring up a good point actually, which makes me realize why I love driving our 911 and 944 more than any other car I've driven. It's not because they're Porsche and my Porsche bias dictates that they are best, but because they have a good amount of usable power and they're so light, they're reasonably quick and fun to drive! But I do think in today's day in age, somewhere between 300-500 is my sweet spot, but I haven't driven a car with more than 300. -_-